Ep. 25 - How to Curate Partnership (2011)

PuSh Play

Gabrielle Martin chats with David Pay, Artistic Director of Vancouver’s Music on Main.

Show Notes

Gabrielle and David discuss:

• How did David’s relationship with Push start and develop over the years?

• How has Vancouver changed over the years?

• “Terminal City Soundscape” in 2011: how did this project get realized for PuSh?

• Importance of improvisation to Music on Main’s work

• Power of aesthetic beauty in conjunction with the beauty of the city

• How did PuSh give Music on Main the confidence and audience to produce its kind of music?

• What did it mean to produce work through Covid?

• What was David’s role in past productions beyond working as curator?

• What does it mean to be an artistic and creative producer of music?

• How does David value the intersection of different audiences and disciplines?

• How has the contemporary and classical world changed since the inception of Music on Main?

• How do arts organizations collaborate as members of larger initiatives?

• Designing communal spaces for creative work

• Why has Music on Main continued to partner with PuSh over the years? Why does it remain interesting?

• How do you properly value the composer in music?

• What is the difference between multidisciplinary and interdisciplinary?

About David Pay

Dave is Music on Main’s founder and Artistic Director, earning a reputation as one of today’s leading-edge concert programmers. He is a frequent curator and speaker at conferences and festivals around the world and served as Artistic Director of ISCM World New Music Days 2017, the largest new music festival in Canada’s history.

About Music on Main

At a Music on Main concert, there’s always great musicians and interesting, engaging music. And there’s always the chance to make new friends, meet the artists, and escape from your to-do list for an hour or two.

Music on Main has produced more than 700 events featuring in excess of 1,800 musicians and 130 world premieres at Heritage Hall on Main Street, the now-closed Cellar Restaurant, the Fox Cabaret, the Jazz Club in Kitsilano, and venues throughout Metro Vancouver. The music has touched the souls of thousands of listeners, and we’ve helped artists from around the world connect with each other, and with Vancouver audiences.

In 2010 we launched the annual Modulus Festival, which “provides western Canada with one of the finest windows onto the post-classical scene” (Gramophone Magazine). In 2017, we co-hosted the ISCM World New Music Days 2017.

Our events take place in Vancouver’s most vibrant neighbourhoods. The Main Street Series happens at Heritage Hall, The Fox Cabaret, and other intimate spaces located in the heart of the Mount Pleasant neighbourhood, in East Vancouver. Other events take place in unexpected and fun venues throughout Metro Vancouver.

At Music on Main, you’re always welcome.

Land Acknowledgement

This conversation was recorded on the unceded, stolen and ancestral territories of the Coast Salish Peoples: the xʷməθkʷəy̓əm (Musqueam), Skwxwú7mesh (Squamish) and Səl̓ílwətaɬ (Tsleil-Waututh), colonially known as Vancouver.

It is our duty to establish right relations with the people on whose territories we live and work, and with the land itself.

Show Transcript

Gabrielle Martin 00:02

Hello and welcome to Push Play, a Push Festival podcast featuring conversations with artists who are pushing boundaries and playing with form. I'm Gabrielle Martin, Push's Director of Programming, and in this special series of Push Play, we're revisiting the legacy of Push and talking to creators who've helped shape 20 years of innovative, dynamic, and audacious festival programming.

Gabrielle Martin 00:21

Today's episode is anchored around the 2011 Push Festival. It highlights Music on Main in conversation with David Pei. Since 2006, Music on Main has produced more than 700 events featuring in excess of 1 ,800 musicians and 130 world premieres.

Gabrielle Martin 00:38

The music has touched the soles of thousands of listeners and helped artists from around the world connect with each other and with Vancouver audiences. David Pei is Music on Main's founder and artistic director, earning a reputation as one of today's leading -edge concert programmers.

Gabrielle Martin 00:53

He is a frequent curator and speaker at conferences and festivals around the world, and served as artistic director of the ISCM World New Music Days 2017, the largest new music festival in Canada's history.

Gabrielle Martin 01:07

Here's my conversation with David. I just want to start by acknowledging that we are on the traditional ancestral and unceded territories of the First Nations, Coast Salish First Nations, Squamish, Musqueam, and Tsleil -Wautu.

Gabrielle Martin 01:23

And we are here on those territories, on Homeward Street, near the Push offices, which are also the Music on Main offices, so the post is 750. So we're neighbours there, and we just hop down the street.

David Pay 01:38

some talk of whether we should have a conversation in our office, but the street is way prettier and more fun. Plus lunch.

Gabrielle Martin 01:44

Yeah, yeah. So, let's just jump right into it. I would love it if you could talk to me about how your relationship with Push started, and then also, yeah, how it developed, or how it's developed in the years.

David Pay 01:59

Well, I started Music on Main in 2006, and so Push had just started up, it's like, changed the landscape, it was so exciting, it really was a different city back then too, you know, like, there was more things that felt emergent.

Ben Charland 02:15

Thank you.

David Pay 02:16

partly time of life as well, I'm sure, but the city, you know, as we look around at all these towers, some of them were here then, some of them weren't. The city was growing, there was like increased strange professionalism, like all the extra accountability, and it's sort of like, what about the DIY?

David Pay 02:35

What about the making things? And so it was this moment where DIY and making things met with an ever increasing sophistication and professionalism in the arts. And so I think that the push came out of that, came out of like an idea of sharing ideas about the city and bringing people in from other parts of the city, and that was an inspiration for so many of us.

Gabrielle Martin 02:56

And were you already in conversation with Norman? No.

David Pay 03:02

the team at that point? No, Norman and Katrina and the team at that point were like oh my god these like amazing humans who had started this incredible festival that just went bang from the very beginning and so you know I think you know we'd all met and said hello or whatever but the very first concert that Music on Main did in 2006 Norman Armour bought a ticket and I was doing box office and production and artistic direction and everything back then and when I saw Norman's name on the list I was out of my mind excited to get like this endorsement you know just like I'm gonna show up for that new thing yeah

Gabrielle Martin 03:35

And then, so maybe we'll start then by talking about how the relationship evolved through the different projects you did. So we were kind of anchoring this conversation in 2011's Terminal City Soundscape.

Gabrielle Martin 03:50

But before that came Steve Rice drumming in 2009 and then many productions after that. But let's start with Terminal City Soundscape. Can you tell me about this project and about how it was realized for Push?

Gabrielle Martin 04:05

Yeah.

David Pay 04:06

So in 2011, Terminal City Soundscape, so obviously we're planning this in 2010, maybe a bit before then. And I was really interested, I think inspired a lot by how Push would look at the city and help define or help explain things that were happening in the city.

David Pay 04:24

I was jealous that that was happening in theater. I was jealous that that was already so clearly established in the visual art world. And I was like, well, what does Vancouver do? And so I wrote a little essay about it and I was thinking about four aesthetic streams that were really important to Vancouver's musical ecology.

David Pay 04:44

And I had for those soundscape, which was invented here with Murray Shafer and Hillegard Vesterkamp and Barry Truax, like the idea of soundscape and the world soundscape project started here in Vancouver.

Gabrielle Martin 04:57

Yeah, and so so there was

David Pay 04:59

soundscape was one of those aesthetics or movements. There's this improvisation and free improv is really important here and we have really heavy hitter players who play all over the world, legends all over the world and the improv world.

David Pay 05:14

There's this intercultural thing that happens more authentically in Vancouver than it can happen in other places where people come together from different cultures musically and share each other's cultures and it's not just about non -western musicians learning how to play Western music, it's about Western musicians learning how to authentically engage in other cultures as well and being taught and led by other cultures.

David Pay 05:38

So I think the intercultural movement here with organizations like Vancouver International, or Vancouver Intercultural Orchestra, Vico, they do amazing work and so that was starting to come up. And then there's also I think an aesthetic around beauty and when I say that I mean sort of almost a Keatsian beauty that is about beauty and the importance of beauty and how beauty makes life possible and I think that is a response to the extraordinary geographic beauty of the city as opposed to creating a softness it actually creates an incredible aesthetic and I include composers like Rodney Sherman in that and the late Jocelyn Moorlach in that.

David Pay 06:17

So I wanted to take these ideas of the city and share them with the push -up audience to say hey like in music we can think about these ways that we're thinking about in theater that we're thinking about in visual art and yeah it was a great big production.

David Pay 06:32

Norman said yes to doing it we did it at Heritage Hall.

Gabrielle Martin 06:35

from the early stages you discussed realizing it in the context of push.

David Pay 06:41

Yeah, absolutely. You know, the energy around Push with the audience, the energy around Push with the artistic community was like it was inspiring for I think everyone who wanted to make projects. And it was at a period where we didn't think things happened in the city and then all of a sudden January became sort of almost the artistic buzz point in Vancouver.

David Pay 07:03

And yeah, so it was definitely this project and it was a bigger project than we would normally do at Music on Main, so that also having access to Push... Just for another cast? There was a lot of cast in it in terms of the number of players involved and also big electro acoustic setups for the soundscape portion.

David Pay 07:23

We also had giant screens inside Heritage Hall, which is a beautiful space that doesn't have screens, doesn't have theatrical lighting, doesn't have any projection opportunities, so you have to bring everything in.

Gabrielle Martin 07:34

So why did you choose that menu?

David Pay 07:36

It was our home venue, and it was with Music on Main, on Main Street. It's where Music on Main started in 2006 when Norman bought that first ticket. I think knowing that we had Push's support in getting new audiences to hear this music and to experience this gave us the confidence, and we had that experience as well starting in 2009 with Steve Leish's drumming.

David Pay 07:58

We knew that audiences would come to hear music that they don't normally hear outside of the Push Festival, because of its association with Push.

Gabrielle Martin 08:08

And so, as mentioned, Push presented Steve Reich's drumming in 2009, then Eve Agoyen plays Simple Lines of Inquiry in 2012, then Anna Sokolovich's Svaadba Wedding, and, so two productions in 2013, and Reich and Wright with pianist Vicky Chow in 2013, and mixtape Gabrielle Kehane and Timo Andres.

David Pay 08:44

Timo Andres, yeah. Andres, okay.

Gabrielle Martin 08:46

2014. And then we continue to do co -presentations every year. Yeah. Every year since I've been in Polish.

David Pay 08:56

We've done co -presentations with Push every year since 2009, except during the pandemic, when in, was it the first year when there was a hybrid? No, I think it was all digital festival. We did Caroline Chon, Vanessa Goodman's graveyards and gardens as a digital presentation with Push.

Gabrielle Martin 09:14

But that is also impressive because there was only three productions that year. So it was, you know, a mainstay of the festival. He'd been in the middle of the festival.

David Pay 09:24

and working closely together on that one and then we had to cancel one year when the when it was a hybrid festival in Lee Avon since new production we weren't able to do songs for a lost pod we weren't able to do that with push at that time and yes but every year we tried I know we tried so hard it was just you know

Gabrielle Martin 09:43

work in creation with a large cast in the middle of the Omicron Way. But the difference between some of these earlier projects is that they were really co -produced with Push. Would you say that that's correct?

David Pay 09:56

We did the main production, but there was a lot of territorial conversation around what would happen, and even where it would happen. I remember we, at Musicon Main, we do concerts off Main Street now as well.

David Pay 10:08

We're at the Annex a lot, we're at the Round House a lot, and other venues around Vancouver. But for Norman, it was really important that we kept concerts on Main Street for as long as we could, and so yeah, there were some productions like Terminal City Soundscape that could have fit into other venues as well.

David Pay 10:27

But having it on Main Street, yeah, and it was a part for Norman about sort of spreading art around the city and different places too.

Gabrielle Martin 10:33

And then, you know, you are artistic director of Music on Main. Were you also involved as a performer or a composer in some of these projects? Because I know these days, since I've been at Flush, you know, your role has more been in the curatorial sense, and that's been our relationship when we're discussing these projects.

David Pay 10:56

music on main came of age and I came of age professionally. I've really dug into the role of producer and what is a producer and I know these are conversations that happen in the theater world as well is like what is what is an artistic producer, what's a creative producer.

David Pay 11:12

In classical music and contemporary music the artistic director often is a curator, often is some just a booker sometimes, like booking great concerts.

Ben Charland 11:27

Can I buy it by snowboard?

David Pay 11:28

A deeper hand in productions is something that I think seeing work at Push led me to know that I really wanted to do. So those first productions, for instance, like Steve Reicher's Drumming, we did So Percussion the next year, Eva Vitova was a violinist, we've done a whole bunch of different shows that are presenting.

David Pay 11:47

And, you know, I think Push is involved in this as well. We have shows that are presenting and we have shows that are produced. And when you're a producer, sometimes it's about your role and what you're paying, but also the eyes that you're bringing and the idea of how, what the relationship is for the audience and the art.

David Pay 12:07

And that's something that I think I really stepped into, seeing Great Work at Push, being inspired by Norman and also our first board president, Alma Lee, who founded the Writers Festival here, being inspired by people who were sort of city changers and that changing the city involved going out and knowing what's happening in the world, taking ideas that you think can work, bringing them back.

David Pay 12:28

And so I became more of a producer and producer as artistic practice, I would say. And it's things like the events that happen at Push Festival, like the conversations that happen during industry that allow artistic directors like me to step into these roles and be like, no, this actually is artistic practice.

Gabrielle Martin 12:50

Yeah, it's very apparent when you're speaking about how much you value that the kind of intersection of audiences who come from different contexts, the kind of conversations that can happen around work, and we really appreciated your appreciation of that.

Gabrielle Martin 13:08

We value that as well, so much of questions about relationships and as a multidisciplinary festival. I think that's something really exciting that you're speaking to, is what are the conversations that are happening in a certain discipline, or the aesthetic trends in a certain discipline, and what does that mean when we apply that lens to another?

Gabrielle Martin 13:27

You see this in your work.

David Pay 13:29

as well where when you work with artists in different disciplines we have such different approaches to how a rehearsal works, who says what, the difference between dancers and actors and musicians and circus performers like we all have these these specific ways of being on stage in rehearsal and learning how to translate between those different things is such a huge and important part of a And so I think that's one of the things that push has made possible as well as bringing things together in a multi -disciplinary way.

David Pay 14:02

You're forced to think about how do you communicate with artists across discipline and then how do you communicate to audiences across or through discipline too.

Gabrielle Martin 14:11

from different frames of reference, you know, coming in with different frames of reference, different expectations. Great. Thanks. Yeah. Thank you very much. I really appreciate how you're talking about creative producing, artistic producing, and I know that Music on Main has been so important for so many local artists because you premiere a lot of work.

Gabrielle Martin 14:36

You work with artists in that first introduction of their work to a public, and your relationships with local artists that are long -term relationships with artists that you present more than once, you know, and I think that's really special, and I guess what I'm curious if there's any other co -presentations, productions, any other collaborations with Push projects that you've worked on with Push that you want to talk about in terms of,

Gabrielle Martin 15:05

you know, just being memorable or being iconic or special when you think about the relationship with Push between Push and Music on Main.

David Pay 15:15

Well I think there is something about the sharing with push audiences and the bringing music on main audiences together and so you know like that one moment it's actually more like that feeling which took a while to realize but that feeling of sharing across audiences is something that we in that music on main internally we talk about that every year when we're talking about the collaborations and you know you and I will talk about collaborations coming up and you'll have suggestions and I'll have suggestions and we'll talk about how will these audiences react to work and so there is that that feeling I think that's there.

David Pay 15:55

One of the early expectations I had or early hopes I had was that oh the super sexy push audience that's like just on fire every January is going to come to a music on main event and then they're going to turn into music on main audience members on the on an ongoing basis like come to three or four shows a year and that hasn't been when we look at the data audience data around that that hasn't been the experience so much and at first I was like oh like how does this collaboration lead to increased or better audiences for music on main but we realize that it leads to better audiences for music on main because one of the joys of working in non -profit is it's not just about getting more dollars through your revenue in your seats right it's about the work that you do and how it connects to community and so we realize that there are a whole bunch of people who are more familiar with theater who come to push who come to one new music event a year and they come to a music on main push collaboration and so for us this is sort of a better audience like it makes our audience better it makes the work work better because we're reaching people who we otherwise wouldn't reach or we're able to share music with people who we wouldn't get to share with on a regular basis so yeah so it's funny that like what is that one event i have a list like i brought a list of the 17 productions and presentations that we've done since we started and

Gabrielle Martin 17:16

But while you're thinking about that, I'll just echo that for this last year, you know, Inheritances, the co -presentation between music on May and Bush, that was a project I heard from many first audiences that they maybe didn't know what to expect, because yeah, they're not, I would say you're right, they're generally a theater or dance audience, and something really exciting can happen there as well,

Gabrielle Martin 17:39

when people don't know what they're really walking into, and the feedback was really incredible, many people were very touched by it, and I think we're surprised, because yeah, they didn't know what to expect.

David Pay 17:53

I think the contemporary music and classical music world has changed in the 18 years music funding has been doing this. And productions, concerts that are led in a dramaturgical way that have production elements that are really thought about as like what's going to happen between movements, what's the lighting going to be, how's the artist going to approach the stage.

David Pay 18:17

Like in classical music that really wasn't a consideration in instrumental music when we first started out 18 years ago and that's like when I was becoming a hands on producer. I remember seeing like it's Steve Reisz drumming the first one we did saying like here's this audience they're used to theater like how are you going to bow.

David Pay 18:36

And the musicians were a little bit surprised that we had a how to bow rehearsal and I was like no like we're in front of a theater audience we need to step up our game. Yeah so I think that the ecology of contemporary music has changed where people are often much more aware of an audience experience.

David Pay 18:56

And I think that Adam Tendler's inheritance is you know he created that project out of love of contemporary music and wanting to commission a lot of pieces but he worked really hard on the order of those pieces and he worked with Kate Nordstrom in Minnesota who's a phenomenal producer to frame it so that it became an event so that it became a concert that would have that emotional impact.

Gabrielle Martin 19:22

Yeah, and it was really fun.

David Pay 19:24

thrilling that after its performances in some festivals and a lot of new music venues that it got shared in a multidisciplinary festival and that outside of music people have that reaction to it as well.

Gabrielle Martin 19:33

So the relationship between music on me and Push evolved into being an annual thing, like as mentioned on Mainstay, so how did that evolve from that 2009, 2011 event, and then it just rolled over, how did that happen?

Gabrielle Martin 19:51

And then how did you come to sharing an office?

David Pay 19:55

The annualization of the productions was, it's never a given. We don't have a contract that says Pushin' Music on Main are going to collaborate every year. We look for projects where it will work and I think it's a benefit to both of our organizations to be able to connect with audiences and to be able to share art outside.

Gabrielle Martin 20:14

And also, you know, the expertise you bring in from this kind of contemporary music field is really great. It's an example. Yeah.

David Pay 20:24

you know I'll jump into some ideas and things that we learned about interdisciplinary work which I think is apropos the conversation is absolutely a part of terminal city sandscapes as well but to come back to this idea of annualization and then how did we become such some interwoven organizations that we share the post at 750 the annualization of concerts was not a given we would share ideas every year and it always made sense and so it has become a de facto agreement like but nobody ever takes it for granted that we are going to be collaborating each year and I think it worked out because everybody wanted it to work out and then through that became good friends great colleagues and then back 2012 2013 push and touchstone wanted to address and find solutions for all of the performing arts leaving downtown office space gone from downtown rehearsal space gone from downtown and they knew that at some point the space inside the cbc building would open up and they also knew it was Mina Schindlinger and Norman Armour from push and Katrina Dunn and Louise Bentall from touchstone who were sort of the four people who I first met around this project the co -location project I think Mina was a really amazing leader around the idea of it being a cooperative that it's not a non -profit that it's not for profit it's not another kind of coalition it's actually a cooperative formally

Gabrielle Martin 22:10

And why was it important to have that differentiation?

David Pay 22:12

Well, and I didn't think it was at first. And I remember a phone call room and it was like, you know, we're interested in the music on me being a part of this. And I was like, ah, it's a lot of work running a space.

David Pay 22:22

It's a lot of work being responsible for that. And I remember saying, hey, you know, like if you actually just need people to pay rent, we'll be really good tenants. We'd love to be a part of this. And she was like, oh no, actually, if you just wanna be a tenant, that won't work out.

David Pay 22:34

That's not what we want here. We need organizations who are gonna be equally responsible for the wellbeing of the space, for the care of the community, for the care of all the employees. We need organizations that are going to be equally responsible for the financial wellbeing of it all as well.

David Pay 22:50

And who will work as equal peers, not as hierarchical peers, like not in a landlord -tenant relationship, but in a member -to -member relationship to make the space work for each of the organizations and for the city at large.

David Pay 23:06

So I immediately love this idea so much more than being a tenant. So Touchstone and Push started it, and then they talked with many organizations and invited Doxa Documentary Film Festival and Music on Main to the table.

David Pay 23:20

And the moment the four organizations were identified, we became four equal members. We were all there equally. And it was an amazing moment in, I think, all of our careers, building an 8 ,500 -square -foot space, raising a ton of money, planning it all out, working with the architects, working with the contractors.

David Pay 23:40

We all became expert in tenant improvements and how to deal with HVAC as well as the amount of toilet paper you need to order. It was so exciting. It was so exciting.

Gabrielle Martin 23:53

Exciting in terms of having that agency. Yeah

David Pay 23:56

having agency beyond what you could ever have in a landlord -tenant relationship.

Gabrielle Martin 24:01

creating a space that will have a legacy. Yeah, and that's one of the exciting things.

David Pay 24:04

and challenging things around that space is of the the leaders who were around during the building of it I think I'm the only one left in this space and so sort of watching the organization the 110 Arts Cooperative watching the cooperative morph and evolve and especially during COVID go through ups and downs when we're in office not in office and but keeping this culture of collaboration and culture of equality alive in the space that's been a huge part of it so like all of it how did the concerts become annual how did we end up sharing an office space it's kind of all organic but not organic in a laissez -faire way not like like oh we're gonna put some seeds in and see how they grow more organic and like oh you like seeds I like seeds what sort of seeds are you into let's put them in the ground what's great soil for it like really like yeah let's let's follow these common interests and follow this common care for the city

Gabrielle Martin 25:03

Well, it's such a pleasure to share office space with you, community space, you know, and just be able to run to each other, and, you know, at times, there's hard times. There's the ups and downs. You know, we weather the storm side by side, and it's actually incredibly meaningful to have that camaraderie.

David Pay 25:25

And this space, if you haven't been to the Post at 750 during push, there are public events that are often during music on main throughout the season. It's an amazing space and it was designed by a Simsekuric architect so that we would bump into each other so that we have our communal spaces, we have our lounge spaces, we have our hallways so that these conversations would happen.

David Pay 25:47

So as we were building it, we knew that creative stuff would happen and that being around each other the creative stuff would happen. And then we discovered

Gabrielle Martin 25:55

Do you have a good idea?

David Pay 25:57

I think for all the employees there but you know I can speak as a leader of one of the organizations that the leader to leader conversations that you have like you know Gabrielle and I had to make a real appointment to show up for lunch and have a conversation today but when you just bump into each other by the kitchen sink as you're making lunch as you're coming or going as you get results from a grant as you get a huge success with an artist it's that bumping into each other and talking about how we're managing and navigating everything that has changed my practice as an arts administrator hugely and then the camaraderie between all the organizations is I think something that supports every single employee in that space.

Gabrielle Martin 26:38

something that would be very easy to take for granted. But that is really contribute to the well -being and sustainability, I think, to the organizations that are there. Just to kind of, I'm curious to hear your perspective as a kind of last question I have for you.

Gabrielle Martin 26:54

You know, you spoke to Push's significance when Push started and when you first started the relationship with Push. And, you know, the city has changed since then. Culture has changed.

David Pay 27:07

changed, the arts have changed. It's 20 years isn't that long. It's been a busy change -filled 20 years.

Gabrielle Martin 27:18

Yeah, so I guess I'm curious from your perspective, and you've spoken to it a bit, but why it's still interesting for Music on Main to a partner, why over the years it's continued to be a significant relationship for Music on Main, and if you have any kind of insight into how the context around Khrush and Music on Main has shifted over the years.

Gabrielle Martin 27:46

Yeah.

David Pay 27:47

So many things in there. I mentioned earlier that on the music on the inside we never take for granted that we're going to continue to collaborate, but it's easy to collaborate when we can pop into each other's office and be like, hey, you want to look at something that I'm really excited about?

David Pay 28:05

And so there's that side of sort of how it continues to go. Why does that remain interesting? I want to go back to audiences for that. There are projects that come across my desk or that I'm thinking about creating that I'm like, oh, this would be juicy with Push.

David Pay 28:21

This is something that we could really dig into with Push, with Push's audiences. This is something that would be, the music would be received better, the performance will be received better if it can be with an audience that isn't just music, discipline, and focus.

David Pay 28:36

So I think there's huge value, and as contemporary music shifts and becomes more interdisciplinary, I think that the composer side of that still doesn't have the same prominence. Composers don't have the same prominence in other fields, in other art disciplines that they have in music.

David Pay 28:55

And so it's sort of like if we're going to value a playwright, how do we value the composer? And then how do you make interdisciplinary work actually happen? And how do you elevate, how through multidisciplinary work can you elevate all of the art so that it's like, I'm a music guy, you're a circus person, like the dance person, that all of us can connect with the art forms we want and still hold on all the other art forms as equal.

Gabrielle Martin 29:23

I think, you know, creative risk and interdisciplinary are really important aspects of the Push Festival and sometimes, you know, it is a multidisciplinary festival. Not every project is interdisciplinary, but as a festival, there is an interdisciplinary that happens because of that coexistence of different forms and it's, yeah, interesting how different forms, yeah.

Gabrielle Martin 29:45

There's different focuses, priorities, yeah. I know.

David Pay 29:50

For me, early on through work, Tom Cohn, Karen Love, Marie Lopez, and I had an organization called Cabinet Interdisciplinary Collaborations. This was sort of around the same time that Norman and Katrina were founding Push, and it was to look at the difference between multi -discipline and inter -discipline, where multi -discipline is disciplines happening simultaneously, or the showing of different disciplines in the world.

David Pay 30:19

It brings together music and dance, or theater and something, like these multi -disciplinary things. Whereas interdisciplinary takes from all of these different forms, these different disciplines, and makes them into something.

David Pay 30:34

It's sort of like that third thing, you bring two things together and it becomes something else. So we were really digging into this idea of interdisciplinary versus multidisciplinary. And I think the words often get used interchangeably, but the Terminal City Soundscape was conceived as an interdisciplinary work.

David Pay 30:56

Minasham had a film in it, it used theater techniques to have people in the audience who started speaking during one of the pieces. We tried to look at if multidisciplinary would be a film with music happening at the same time.

David Pay 31:10

Interdisciplinary is something about film and music can only happen together. They don't exist on their own, they can only exist as a single entity. So yeah, we tried to dig in with that, and Cabinet was a part of that, and I think that was also part of early thinking around how do you and the Kinney City to do.

Gabrielle Martin 31:31

It is.

David Pay 31:32

and also offer up during the push.

Gabrielle Martin 31:35

It's exciting, wow. Stay tuned for 2025. Push and Music on Main. Which I'm very excited for. And beyond. Thanks so much, David, for this long -term relationship that I had the pleasure of stepping into.

Gabrielle Martin 31:51

It wasn't a given. We've been able to have our own conversations with our curatorial interests and see where they align, and that's been really exciting. And also just the never -ending support that comes from you and your team as neighbors of the space.

David Pay 32:04

right back at us from you guys, like the never -ending support. It really is, it's hard to describe, like I was going to say, amazing, life -changing, like to be able to share that space with Push, with Touchstone, with Doc, you know, for all of us at Music on Main, it makes such a difference.

Gabrielle Martin 32:22

Thanks, Dave.

David Pay 32:23

Thanks, everyone.

Ben Charland 32:26

That was a special episode of Push Play, in honor of our 20th Push International Performing Arts Festival, which will run from January 23rd to February 9th, 2025. Push Play is produced by myself, Ben Charland, and Tricia Knowles.

Ben Charland 32:43

A new episode of our 20th Festival series with Gabriel Martin will be released every Tuesday wherever you get your podcasts. To stay up to date on Push 20 and the 2025 Festival, visit pushfestival .ca and follow us on social media at Push Festival.

Ben Charland 33:02

And if you've enjoyed this episode, please spread the word and take a moment to leave a review. We'll see you next time.