Intentional Community.

Rethink Real Estate. For Good.

Kathryn (Katie) McCamant brings the depth and diversity of her 35 years of experience as a developer, architect, and cohousing resident to benefit her clients.

Coauthor of Cohousing: A Contemporary Approach to Housing Ourselves, the book that introduced cohousing to North America and the English-speaking world, and more recently, Creating Cohousing: Building Sustainable Communities, Katie co-founded McCamant & Durrett Architects/The CoHousing Company with Charles Durrett. More recently, she started CoHousing Solutions as a development consulting firm to share best practices and systems for successful collaborative development.

She works with urban, suburban and rural communities all across North America, helping them define and implement their development strategy and build the professional team they need. She also founded the 500 Communities Program to train other professionals to work in this realm. She lived for 12 years at Doyle Street Cohousing in the San Francisco Bay Area, and now lives at Nevada City Cohousing in the Sierra Foothills.

Read the podcast transcript here

Eve Picker: [00:00:07] Hi there. Thanks for joining me on Rethink Real Estate. For Good. I’m Eve Picker and I’m on a mission to make real estate work for everyone. I love real estate. Real estate makes places good or bad, rich, or poor, beautiful, or not. In this show, I’m interviewing the disruptors, those creative thinkers and doers that are shrugging off the status quo in order to build better for everyone.

Eve: [00:00:42] Early in her career, very early, Katie McCamant visited Copenhagen. She was an architecture student studying abroad. In Copenhagen she learned of a new housing model called cohousing, a small, intentional community of private homes clustered around a shared space. Common space usually includes a large kitchen, dining area, and other common facilities, but will vary depending on each community’s wants and needs. This was a brand new concept with just eight projects built in Copenhagen and nowhere else in the world. Katie was wowed. She was interested in housing in architecture and this model made so much sense to her. So, she wrote a couple of books and built a career on helping people build their own cohousing community, advising them from soup to nuts. Listen in to learn more.

Eve: [00:01:50] Hi Katie, I’m really happy to have you on my show today.

Katie McCamant: [00:01:54] Thanks, Eve. It’s a great pleasure to be here.

Eve: [00:01:57] So you’ve immersed your life in a very particular kind of housing called cohousing. What is cohousing?

Katie: [00:02:05] Now cohousing is an intentional, collaborative neighborhood where people come together to create a neighborhood where you actually know your neighbors with the intent of working together in a more collaborative way. And in order to do that the cohousing model of community has individual private homes. They could be a small studio or four-bedroom house and extensive common facilities so that, you know, we have what’s called a common house, where we have a great room, a kitchen, often guest rooms, crafts rooms, a kid’s room, whatever that community decides. So, it’s that balance of privacy and community within a neighborhood. But just as importantly, is the social intent that we actually want to get to know our neighbors and work together in a collaborative way.

Eve: [00:02:59] So where did you learn about cohousing?

Katie: [00:03:02] Well, a long time ago I was a study abroad student in Denmark, in Copenhagen. And, you know, if you study architecture in Copenhagen, I was an architecture student there, you study the history of housing there. And this was in the early 80s when I think cohousing community number 12 was just being built. So they were, it was just really starting to get noticed there. And outside of Denmark, nobody had heard about it. But for me, as a young architect, I looked at it and said, oh, well, this makes perfect sense. I’m sure everybody back in the States knows all about this. And much to my surprise, I got to UC Berkeley, and nobody had ever heard about it. So that kind of became the path after that.

Eve: [00:03:49] So why did you want to import the idea to the US in particular?

Katie: [00:03:54] Well, I think it was both very personal and professional. You know, in the architecture world, there’s this small cadre of people who get quite fascinated by neighborhoods and housing. And I was one of those. And professionally, you know, I was in architecture school, I wanted to have a family and kids. I didn’t live near my extended family, even though I have a great extended family. We’re extended pretty much across the country.

Eve: [00:04:24] Very extended!

Katie: [00:04:25] And I was just like, how do you do this? You know, where are my models? How do I have a family and, you know, work as a professional architect? So, for me, it really hit a spot of like, oh, that’s what I can do. The other thing is it was one of the few innovative housing models from Europe that was not started with government programs or subsidies. So, I saw a model that we could actually adapt here in that it was just people getting together to create these neighborhoods, middle class households looking for something that the market didn’t provide. And Denmark is a country where 65% of the population at that time lived in single-family homes. So, it was like, it also gave me a model of how, of something that I felt was very adaptable to United States.

Eve: [00:05:16] How did you start your first cohousing community?

Katie: [00:05:21] Well, it was interesting, you know. So, I wrote the book that introduced cohousing to the English-speaking world with my ex-husband, Charles Durrett. And we started by talking to the nonprofit housing developers in the San Francisco Bay area, where we lived. I had worked for Mission Housing, so I had pretty good connections in that world and just found that, you know, this is Reagan housing cuts, and there was just no way they could fund anything innovative. So then, again learning from the Danes, we went to the market. So, we realized pretty quickly that we needed to be able to show that we had real people who really wanted something different and could afford that as a market rate model. So that really became my mission. And I think that was a really important decision, was saying, you know, there are other people out there who don’t qualify for subsidies but are looking for some the development world is not providing. And so, from that point on we were really working with buyers groups. People who wanted to live in cohousing, didn’t know how to, anything about real estate but were also looking for something other than that. So, our first project was Doyle Street Cohousing. Actually, two projects happen about the same time Muir Commons and Davis was part of a larger master plan community.

Katie: [00:06:51] And we, you know, we self-published the book, so we had 3000 books in our basement. We were desperately trying to get out just to pay the rent. And so, we would talk anywhere. So, we did a presentation in Davis, and out of that came a co-housing group that was really interested. At the other, there were two other critical attendees at that presentation. And it wasn’t that big a group. So, there was a city council woman and then one of the partners involved in a big master plan development in West Davis. So, after the presentation, the city councilwoman got up, walked over to the master-plan developer, and said, why don’t you include one of these? And there in the room were a bunch of people who were really interested in living in a community like that. So that’s how Muir Commons happened. And then, in Emeryville, in the heart of the San Francisco Bay area, a developer was kind of looking at what to do with this building and whether it should be artists, live/work or what about this cohousing thing? So, we jumped on that and said, yeah, we can bring a group of buyers and went out and brought that in.

Eve: [00:08:04] How do you start? Like, if you’re starting from scratch, what are the steps to starting a cohousing community?

Katie: [00:08:13] Yeah and that’s actually the hard part because, you know, developers are still not initiating projects. There were three of us developers. So, I’ve worked as an architect. I’ve worked as a project manager. I then started a development company that really initiated these projects, these new communities. And now I work as a development consultant working all across North America. But it hasn’t caught on in the development world. So, it would be much easier if developers were initiating the projects and then sort of testing the market to see if there were people interested in it. And that’s what I did. And I think we have a model that actually works for that. But in most cases, there’s no developers initiating cohousing projects. So that means that, you know, if you wanted to start a community where you are, you would start talking to other people who wanted to live in a cohousing community. So, it’s usually a burning soul that’s like, I don’t want to move in order to buy into another community.

Eve: [00:09:13] I know one of those in Pittsburgh. She probably worked 20 years on it to get the right group of people together, yeah.

Katie: [00:09:19] Right. And so, then you’re pulling that group together and eventually a lot of them end up hiring me as a development consultant because I kind of understand both worlds and have the patience to work with them in that early stage. And I think that the key thing is getting a group to a point where they really can deliver buyers, right? If they can deliver a buyers group. So, it’s actually more about the marketing than the development, right? Because if they can deliver a buyers group all other problems are solvable. You can find a developer; you can get financing. But you’ve got to be able to show that you really have the buyers. So, I work with groups, you know, from that earliest stages before they have land to help get them up and real and focus in a way that they could then find a developer. A lot of my work is actually looking for developers to partner with cohousing groups.

Eve: [00:10:12] I would have thought that would be easy. Once you have the buyers, like, I would have thought developers would be falling over themselves because, you know, if you build a building and it’s vacant, you’ve got to fill it. That’s a problem for developers, so…

Katie: [00:10:24] I think once I get a group up and they can be a good partner, I can always find a developer. But you know, developments, it’s really about control and not knowing how to work with a group.

Eve: [00:10:40] It’s an extra layer of work for a developer, isn’t it? Yeah.

Katie: [00:10:43] Right. And so, I think understanding that the buyers are really mitigating the risk for you. Because you got to tie down prices, that’s the thing, right? You can’t raise. So, it’s a cost-plus fee model. And that doesn’t ride the ups and downs of the real estate market in the way a truly market rate model will. But it actually works really well. So, what I use is an open book budget. The buyers all know it, the developer knows it. We know what’s in the budget, what’s not in the budget. And really looking for a developer to take the risk of construction and manage construction, as well as finding the construction, financing, and guaranteeing that loan.

Eve: [00:11:26] And so, like, what about common area amenities? Like, how are they decided?

Katie: [00:11:32] Yeah. So that’s part of the early schematic design process. Over the, you know, 35 years of developing co-housing in the US now, we’ve really developed a series of, how do you work with a group of buyers. And so, all the key design decisions are decided very early on in that schematic design phase. And so, part of that is working with the group in a weekend workshop to determine their priority common facilities. And so, there’s the core facilities pretty much every community has, which is, you know, a great room with a good kitchen. You’re trying to avoid a commercial kitchen, but just a kind of kitchen that inspires you to cook. A lounge area if it’s an intergenerational community it would have a kid’s room. Guest rooms are very popular, 1 or 2 guest rooms. But then it’s really up to the community, you know? So, do you want a pool or is a crafts room or a workshop? You know, what are their priority things? So that’s, you know, decided as part of the schematic design.

Eve: [00:12:32] If buyers drop in, drop out and add in, that must be awfully difficult to manage, Katie. Expectations change, right?

Katie: [00:12:42] Yeah. I think most of the world doesn’t realize that pretty much any housing development takes 4 or 5 years to get built. From the time you tie up land to go through the planning approval process and building permits, line up financing and get built. So, you know, I think the public just doesn’t realize how long it takes. And so that’s the first thing is, you know, life happens during that time. People do move on or decide it’s not going to work for them. And so, you know, one of the things I emphasize is it’s really the buyers putting in that front end cash to pay development costs. And that has real pluses and minuses. I would say that the pluses are that you get a really committed group of buyers, and they have skin in the game, and it keeps them focused in a way that nothing else would. The downside is that you have to have that cash, right? So, it makes it hard for middle-income and low-middle-income or lower-income people to start communities. I think, you know, there’s risk in real estate. Everybody needs to acknowledge that. But like any deal, the deal is and I, you know, part of my role now is passing on the systems we’ve developed, including the investment systems, is once your money is in the deal, it stays in the deal until the deal is done.

Eve: [00:14:03] So that’s the risk, right? Yeah.

Katie: [00:14:05] You may move on, but you got, your money’s now in this deal and we’ve got to get it finished to pay you back.

Eve: [00:14:11] Interesting. Is there an ideal size for a cohousing community?

Katie: [00:14:16] Yes. I mean, first I would say try to create community wherever you are with whatever you’ve got. So, whether it’s three households or an existing condo complex, you know, I think there’s opportunities to build stronger communities. But if you’re building new, you know, really what we have found over and over again, going back to the Danish communities in the North American communities as well, is something in that sort of 20 to 40 units. It’s large enough to accommodate diversity of ages and people and you don’t have to be best friends, and small enough that you can really know everybody. So, you have a high level of accountability. You know, I live in Nevada City Cohousing. It’s 34 homes. I know everybody by name. I know most of the dogs, I do not know the cats. But I could actually tell you their story. I could kind of walk down the homes and say tell you everybody’s story.

Eve: [00:15:16] So it’s interesting. I’ve heard the same thing. I know an architect in Australia who’s building rather large housing communities, maybe 200 units, but they break it up into 30 units per elevator with separate access from the street, so it feels like a discrete community. And he said the same thing. The research they found was that was the right size to really create a community. Too big and it’s hard, too small and it’s hard. So, it’s really interesting. Yeah. So, what about zoning regulations? Can they be an issue for cohousing?

Katie: [00:15:49] Well, you know, we’re out there with everybody else trying to build housing. So, I think, you know, there’s a lot of things that just make housing hard to build. We, you know, I would say a large number of my communities that I’ve worked on, we’re submitting as a planned unit development or planned residential development. And I find planning departments, a lot of them studied cohousing now. A lot of them are looking for alternatives. And so, as long as you have a PUD process of one sort or another and you’re not trying to increase the density. Because that’s one of the issues, right? So, one of the things I really see a contrast in is with more suburban zoning, you’re still limited to a number of units per acre. And if you’re building smaller units, you’re at a great disadvantage over what most developers are building, which is kind of bloated houses, to max out the square footage. Whereas when you’re in a more urban zoning, which is more of a form based, and they care less about the number of units and more about the setbacks, we actually do better because we’re generally building a smaller units overall as an average.

Eve: [00:17:02] Yeah, I would imagine, and I mean, is it single family homes? Have you ever been involved in a co-housing project that’s an apartment building? Like, are they, what do they look like physically?

Katie: [00:17:14] Yeah. So, I think that’s one of the things that I really love about cohousing is it can be applied at all different densities. So, right now projects that I’m working on, is I’m working on a agri-village north of Seattle called Rooted Northwest. They bought 240 acres, and they’ve always had support from the county, but the county didn’t actually know how to process it and have an ordinance to process it. So, they had to write a demonstration project ordinance, which we’re now in the process. But the plan is to save 230 acres as agricultural and forest and build two villages clustered tightly so they’re not spreading out across the land on five and ten acre lots. And finishing completion of a community in Sacramento that is a four-story building over podium parking on half an acre. Totally walkable neighborhood. You can walk to Amtrak; you can walk to the state capitol.

Eve: [00:18:17] Oh, that’s quite different, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Really fascinating. So, has cohousing evolved at all to suit the US market since you introduced it?

Katie: [00:18:29] To me, what’s actually more interesting is how much you see similar things coming up. So, my community, Nevada City Cohousing, we moved in in 2006 and, originally, we had 11 acres, the brownfield, it was a gold mining site, and we could have spread out across all the acreage. And I was like, oh, we’re going to a rural area, I don’t know what people will want. But actually, people really wanted, and they kept saying in the site planning design workshop, no, we want that village feel. Pull them closer together. So, I find that it isn’t so different. I mean, I think, you know, the American financing mechanisms are uniquely difficult. The amount of cash you have to raise to get a construction loan continues to get worse and worse. You talk to, particularly northern Europeans. About the struggles of building middle-class housing here, and they just don’t know what to do with it because they have so much more financial support than we have. But in terms of what people actually want and how they live together, I would say there’s many more similarities than differences.

Eve: [00:19:41] Do you have any idea of how many cohousing projects exist today in the US?

Katie: [00:19:47] Yeah, there’s about 180 existing communities, probably another 100 in the forming stage.

Eve: [00:19:52] So it’s increasing rapidly. Yeah.

Katie: [00:19:55] Yeah, there’s a national nonprofit, the Cohousing Association, and they put on conferences and virtual programs, and they keep the best directory. So, if you want to know where there are cohousing communities, you go to cohousing.org look for the directory.

Eve: [00:20:10] So it’s come a way since you started working on this right?

Katie: [00:20:14] It’s come a long ways. You know, I find myself split between, on one hand, it’s come a long ways and we really have established communities, communities that are thriving, you know, new generations. I have younger families moving into my community. So, I’m really seeing, you know, it last way beyond the founders. And at the same time, it’s so hard and there’s so, you know, so few. Right? I go back and forth depending on my mood of the day.

Eve: [00:20:45] I think if you look back, that’s pretty significant. It takes a really long time to build anything new for it to take hold. So, I think that’s pretty good.

Katie: [00:20:55] Yeah. And traditionally, you know, housing is a very conservative choice for most of us.

Eve: [00:21:00] Yes.

Katie: [00:21:02] It’s not an easy sell. You know, for most of us it’s our single largest investment. So, people, like, can I get my money out if somebody, is there going to be a buyer when I need it, you know. But I would say overwhelmingly it’s been really successful. It’s a great way to raise kids. It’s a great way to grow old. It just fills that community by proximity. You know, we all have a community. But these days in America, you drive to your community. And so having neighbors next door…

Eve: [00:21:37] So who will finance this? Like, how do you find financing for cohousing projects?

Katie: [00:21:43] Well it’s your, you know, your regional banks that tend to do a lot of the smaller construction loans. And so, I mean, the mortgages are easy. Once we get to mortgages, I can, you know, there’s no reason a mortgage for cohousing can’t match any Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, FHA rules. So, that’s not a problem at all. It’s the getting it built. And, you know, what I do is I take a group of buyers with skin in the game. So, my goal is to when I’m going for construction financing, is to be 75% pre-sold. Their money’s not in escrow. It’s, they’re investing in a real estate deal that they hope to buy into themselves. And if I can partner that and find a strong local housing developer, then we have a pretty strong package.

Eve: [00:22:32] Okay, so, what about you? Where do you live?

Katie: [00:22:39] Yeah. So, I live in Nevada City Cohousing, which is in the northern Sierra foothills of California. It’s the heart of the old gold mining country. It was all raped and pillaged in the 1850s. And now is a quaint little town. So, Nevada City Cohousing is 34 homes, town homes, all of them attached. I can walk to town, so it’s fabulous. We moved in in 2006. I got the land under contract and initiated the project and acted as the developer. But now I’m just one of the neighbors.

Eve: [00:23:15] And the neighbors don’t keep coming back to you with all the problems that the developer caused? I’m just joking.

Katie: [00:23:21] Well, the first year or two, I also fired the contractor at the end. So, there was a couple of years of sorting out the end of development. But…

Eve: [00:23:28] Right. Yes, I’ve been in that situation.

Katie: [00:23:33] But yeah, now I’m way beyond that.

Eve: [00:23:35] How do you think co housing might scale? You said there’s 180 but 100 more in development. What’s this going to look like in 5 or 10 years? How does it help affordability?

Katie: [00:23:46] Well those are two really different questions. I think before it will scale, we need more developers coming into this space because trying to get a group of people, I mean, you know, who cohousing attracts is smart people who generally know nothing about real estate development. So, you know how to find a site, how to do feasibility, how to, you know, how do you do real estate development is, you know, not the strength of a buyers group. And so, there is a realm of professionals to support those groups now. But, you know, if there was any way I could get more developers looking at cohousing as one of their products and with the appropriate site, partnering with someone who can help them work with the buyers group, that’s the only way we’re really going to scale this. So, I always say, I’ll talk to any banker, I’ll talk to any developer any time. Because I do think we have a model. I did it, right, about how do you balance the risk and reward between the buyers group and the professional developers needs? And so, I think we actually have a really good model how to do that.

Eve: [00:24:57] And how do resale values work? I mean, is it really just like any other home in a city, or is it better because of the amenities? Like, what does that look like?

Katie: [00:25:07] The basic arithmetic is that the, you know, a typical common house is 3000-4000ft², so you’re adding more cost in. And for most of us, the way we think about that is, I’m going to buy a little bit smaller home and have the common amenities to support me. Right? And so that’s how I think most people think about the arithmetic. That means the cost per square foot is pretty much always going to be higher, right? Because we’re building with a different set of values and really see the common amenities as part of your daily life. So, I have my own kitchen. I do not eat every meal in the common house by any stretch, but I’m going through the common house, you know, pretty much every day. Check my mail, see who’s there. Sometimes to have a meal. So, we’re never going to win the cost per square foot goal. Which, I think it haunts American housing, frankly. But the market is most cohousing communities have a database. A lot of it is word of mouth or through the cohousing association. And I would say the large number of resales actually happen through somebody who contacted the community. So, we often will work with realtors, but it is, even when working with realtors, the buyers often knew about cohousing before, had been looking for it. There’s a national market of people looking for cohousing across America.

Eve: [00:26:39] That’s great. So, are there any other current trends or innovations in real estate development that you think are important for our future, besides cohousing?

Katie: [00:26:49] Yes, well, I was actually listening to a podcast interview of you last night on Regenerative Real Estate.

Eve: [00:26:56] How embarrassing.

Katie: [00:26:58] Oh, it was great. It was really great! And I loved your story about, you know, what you did there in Pittsburgh. And I actually think that that’s one of the things I follow, in my next life, my next developer life, is the small infill housing. How to, you know, do appropriately small development in a neighborhood that really serves a neighborhood, but also brings new and fresh blood into a neighborhood? I think that’s also gotten harder, not easier. But I think that’s so important.

Eve: [00:27:33] Much harder. It’s a battleground. Like, I own a little cottage in an amazing little fishing, ex-fishing community. And these are tiny little 600, 650-square foot cottages with some land. And at some point, in the 70s, probably, or the 80s, the borough overlaid a very suburban zoning regulation. So now, if you want to build a single-family house, it’s got to be a 3500 square foot lot. So, these little fishing cottages weren’t built to stay. But if you tear one down, you have to get a second lot and rebuild a McMansion. And so, the whole personality of this place is going to be wiped out. It’s kind of heartbreaking. And I want to say through ignorance. You know, they really didn’t understand quite the effect of what they were doing and probably still don’t. Right? So, that’s the biggest battleground for me. Like, how do you get to build something in a place where they have these zoning rules that don’t permit it. And small towns can’t afford to redo their zoning regulations. That’s a really tall order, right? So, then it’s up to little developers. And who has the energy for that? Yeah. It’s a problem.

Katie: [00:28:54] Yeah, no, it’s so much easier to fit within the rules as they’re written.

Eve: [00:29:00] Which is why cities are a bit easier, as you said. You know, cities make it a little bit easier because they’re really ready for that?

Katie: [00:29:08] Right. Yeah, I am hopeful that with the breakdown of single-family house zoning in many cities, first, just in the last couple of years that I’ve really seen cities change their parking requirements in a way that I’ve been fighting for parking variances my whole life. So, it’s like, wow, I’m kind of shocked. But I think one of the things, particularly in the West, is my sense of it is much more of a West Coast. All through the West is very few people are building small infill condo developments. Which should be the new missing middle, should be the new middle-class. And, you know, in Europe, you know, you or I, we would all be living in a small new condo development that.

Eve: [00:29:52] I live in one. It’s three units and a store front.

Katie: [00:29:56] And that, the reason they’re not being built in the West and it’s seems to be working its way across the country so it’s just a matter of time, is because of liability issues and lawsuits against condo developers. And it’s, I think, one of the largest land use issues out there that nobody knows about. So, those sorts of things. Because really, I do think, I think there is not a city or town in America that couldn’t use small infill condos, you know, as a for sale.

Eve: [00:30:31] Yeah. No, I think you’re right. I think you’re right. And there’s a lot of leftover land that’s not being used sensibly, which is a waste because there’s infrastructure there and, you know all of that. So, final question what’s next for you? It sounds like you have another company in mind.

Katie: [00:30:50] My goal is to pass on everything I’ve learned to the next generation. I do a year-long training called the 500 Communities Program. I’m looking for people both on the development side and also the marketing side. So that’s really a professional program for professionals who want to work in this space. I will share everything I’ve learned and be really curious how people take it forward. So, I think, you know, my goal is actually not to be the cutting edge, most innovative thing, but to normalize this. I want co-housing to just be one of your housing choices that when you’re thinking, oh dear, I think we should really move here. I wonder if there’s a co-housing community there. You know, that is just one of the housing choices out there and again, you know, I’m shocked that young parents today are still facing the thing young parents always faced is, it’s incredibly isolating to have children in America.

Eve: [00:31:50] It is. You’re right.

Katie: [00:31:51] And it’s the way we build neighborhoods that make it like that.

Eve: [00:31:54] Well, this has been absolutely fascinating. Thank you very much, Katie. I’ve really enjoyed the conversation.

Katie: [00:32:00] Well, great. Well, thank you, Eve, and II really enjoyed getting to know your work. And will be, continue to follow what you’re doing as well.

Eve: [00:32:22] I hope you enjoyed today’s guest and our deep dive. You can find out more about this episode or others you might have missed on the show notes page at RethinkRealEstateforGood.co. There’s lots to listen to there. Please support this podcast and all the great work my guests do by sharing it with others, posting about it on social media, or leaving a rating and a review. To catch all the latest from me, you can follow me on LinkedIn. Even better, if you’re ready to dabble in some impact investing, head on over to smallchange.co where I spend most of my time. A special thanks to David Allardice for his excellent editing of this podcast and original music. And a big thanks to you for spending your time with me today. We’ll talk again soon. But for now, this is Eve Picker signing off to go make some change.

Image courtesy of Katie McCamant

The post Intentional Community. first appeared on Rethink Real Estate. For Good..

The post Intentional Community. appeared first on Rethink Real Estate. For Good..