Reduction in Force: Navigating Layoff Trends in Tech with Real Job Talk (1/2)

Nerd Journey: Career Advice for the Technology Professional

Are layoffs in the tech industry a trend that will continue? What can IT workers do about it? Whether you’ve been impacted by a layoff event, lost colleagues in a layoff, or have just been watching from afar…this episode is part of a focused discussion on layoffs meant to encourage and advise all of us.

This week in episode 290 we’re joined by Kat Nelson Troyer and Liz Bronson, the hosts of Real Job Talk, who bring a perspective on this topic from Human Resources, Recruitment, and Career Coaching. You’ll get to hear their take on the layoff trend with advice for those who have been impacted by a layoff and those who have lost colleagues in a layoff with some leadership advice sprinkled in along the way.

Original Recording Date: 08-13-2024

Topics – Introducing the Hosts of Real Job Talk, A Focused Discussion on Layoffs, Thoughts on Layoff Trends in Tech, Losing Colleagues, If You’ve Been Laid Off, Must Haves vs. Preferences

2:24 – Introducing the Hosts of Real Job Talk

• This week we have two guests who happen to be the co-hosts of Real Job Talk, a podcast sharing practical advice for mid-career professionals.
• Liz Bronson is an HR Leader currently in transition, looking for her next opportunity.
  • Liz has spent a number of years in HR (Human Resources) and recruiting roles. Her experience spans different startups, working at VMware for around 9 years, and running her own consulting firm.
  • Liz likes to focus on employee experience and making places a great place to work.
  • Her most recent roles were VP of People at SupportLogic and working at ThriveCart.
• Kat Nelson Troyer is an HR Consultant, leadership coach, and career coach.
  • Kat started years ago as a recruiter and worked her way through HR (Human Resources). She first met Liz 20 years ago. They worked together as part of a recruiting team and have stayed friends ever since.
• About 6 years ago, Liz and Kat started the Real Job Talk Podcast. Kat says it was Liz’s idea but a very good one.
  • On Real Job Talk, Kat and Liz discuss topics like recruiting, job searching, navigating work transitions / work challenges, and have the occasional live coaching session. These topics are all to serve the mid-career professional.

4:35 – A Focused Discussion on Layoffs

• We wanted to have a focused discussion on this trend of layoffs we’re seeing in the tech industry. John and Nick have their own perspectives on the topic, but this week we want to get perspective from Kat and Liz and their collective experience.
• Our overall structure is to have a discussion about how layoffs are impacting different personas:
  • Initial thoughts on the layoff trend in our industry
  • Advice for those who are seeing layoffs at other companies
  • Advice for those who have lost colleagues in a layoff
  • Advice for people impacted by a layoff
  • Advice for leaders who make decisions to do a layoff at their company
  • Advice for leaders who have to execute the layoff events

6:18 – Thoughts on Layoff Trends in Tech

• Kat
  • Kat is seeing layoffs more so in the tech industry but also across other industries. She is most experienced navigating layoffs in tech.
  • When layoffs are deemed necessary by executive leaders at a company, it creates challenges for Human Resources and to company culture.
    • How do you do this with empathy, and how do you make the decisions around who will be impacted?
    • How do you navigate employee morale after a layoff event?
  • Kat has seen companies do the above really well and others stumble with it. She tries to look at those stumbles as opportunities for learning.
• Liz
  • There are many different pieces to consider when running the project of a layoff (which Liz has had to do over the course of her career). Liz has had to lay off friends, colleagues, and even people she hired.
  • “Does this ever get easier? …No. And it shouldn’t. And if it does check yourself before you wreck yourself. As HR people, we hate letting people go, especially as part of a RIF because we know it’s a surprise…. The best thing we can do as the company is to try to treat people with dignity and respect and try to help them as much as humanly possible.” – Liz Bronson, on the difficulty in executing layoffs
    • Note that RIF stands for Reduction in Force (another term used for a layoff event).
  • HR departments might help personnel impacted by a layoff with some type of placement service, resume review, coaching, making sure people have the necessary paperwork, etc. Liz tells us HR personnel must also understand the legality of the situation. All of this takes an emotional toll on people.
  • “From a leadership perspective, empathy is huge. Transparency is huger…. Leadership is hard. Hard decisions are hard, and you have to own them and get in the trenches and show some real gratitude for the people that have been with you on your journey and do everything you can to help them on their way.” – Liz Bronson
  • Line managers and people who remain have to pull up the culture and be realistic. Focus on how to move the company forward. While the forward-facing view is important, don’t pretend the layoffs didn’t happen.
• John says people are concerned and unsure if this is only a trend, just a reassignment of labor, or something that will never end.
  • Liz says there are cycles, and those who have been in industry for a while have seen these. There are cutbacks and then there is a push to hire.
  • Things end up changing in our industry. Public cloud changed the landscape, and now AI is changing things as well. There has been a scaling back of investments.
  • Liz shares a story from the time of the dot-com bubble as an illustration.
    • She was a teacher and in her early 20s at that time and had peers with VP titles. When Liz asked how her friends made money, they said it was through advertising. When she asked if there was enough advertising for everyone to make money, they didn’t have a comment.
    • It turns out there was not enough advertising to go around, and thus the bubble burst.
    • This was a time of big change in the industry. Things got huge and expanded, and then there was a rightsizing exercise. This cycle has happened time and time again.
  • None of us know exactly what will happen with our company, and the days of working for 30 years at a company, for example, are over. As employees we can:
    • Pay attention to the company’s financial health / overall organizational health. Ask questions.
    • Understand if the company you work for is hitting its sales and marketing goals.
    • Is the company built on a single product? Where is the technology for it going?
    • “We’ve got to be taking care of ourselves while working hard and taking care of our company. We don’t have entitlement, and we have to be aware of what’s around us.” – Liz Bronson
    • Liz thinks 2022 to present has been a rightsizing based on market shifts. But, this has happened before.
• Kat says in the technology industry, you have to take control of your professional development.
  • It is extremely important to keep up in a fast-moving industry and to specialize.
  • Stay in touch with people you have strong relationships with, including those you have worked with in the past.
  • Your professional network is so important. Kat would advise those new to the tech industry to stay in touch with the people they admire and have a good connection with. It’s about more than just connecting on LinkedIn, but the connection on LinkedIn can be a starting point.
  • Kat mentions she and Liz know people who use spreadsheets to keep in contact with important people, and it works really well. We can all have a system that helps us stay in touch with people in our professional network, whatever that looks like.
  • "I think it’s all about knowing what you want and making sure you stay in touch with the people you want to stay in touch with and growing with the people who have values that are aligned with you. Those are going to be people that are going to be a good fit to work with you in the future. " – Kat Nelson Troyer
  • Kat stresses the importance of knowing yourself throughout your career process, keeping your skills up to date, and keeping relationships strong.
    • Be clear on what your value proposition is and what you bring to the table.
  • This is a cyclical pattern in tech. When companies like startups get a new round of funding or try to launch a new product, for example, often times they will over hire and later have to readjust. Kat feels this readjustment is what has been happening recently in our industry.
  • It’s challenging to be laid off for sure. It can also be challenging to be someone who was not laid off and is left with 1/2 or 1/3 of the team. This increases workload for employees who stayed and can impact morale. Strong leadership is necessary as part of moving forward.
  • Liz talks to a lot of people with survivor’s guilt, and she has felt it as well.
    • This is where leadership, empathy, and transparency come into play.
  • When COVID happened, a lot of people had to figure out work from home and whether it worked for them / their company. There was a lot of over hiring that happened due to the uncertainty and businesses booming. Liz tells us there’s a bit of a rightsizing exercise for some companies as a result of the above.
  • When we see the rightsizing across the industry, whether it’s from afar or up close, we might be impacted or worry that it will eventually impact us. Much of it is out of our control, but we can be proactive in the things we do that are within our control (skilling up, making sure things are up to date, knowing our values, etc.).
    • Liz would add this is in the spirit of making sure your company needs you / what you have to offer.
  • When we are in a position where we stayed and had colleagues impacted by a layoff, we can help by elevating their profile on LinkedIn, for example, while they navigate a job search.

16:59 – Losing Colleagues

• If you are someone working at a company that has done layoffs, you may have lost a colleague (a teammate, a boss, etc.). How is the psychological impact different based on whether you’ve lost a teammate compared to losing your boss, for example?
  • One big challenge is when you’re in the know before a layoff happens (i.e. when managers / HR / other leaders know in advance what is coming and who will be impacted). Confidential information has to be kept that way throughout the process.
  • Liz says there is usually a cross functional team involved in executing a layoff, and it stinks being on that team.
  • “The most challenging days of my career are days when I’ve been part of a layoff team.” – Kat Nelson Troyer
  • There have been instances in our industry where managers did not know layoffs were happening and someone made decisions at the executive level.
  • “I go back to what we were saying before though. It’s about transparency. It’s about moving forward. It’s about working together. It’s about repair. And you just have to be aware of what you’re doing to repair your team or your part of the company or your entire organization if you’re at the top. It’s about repair and moving forward…. And you can feel the feelings. Anyone who doesn’t let people acknowledge that it stinks, and anyone who doesn’t make a plan for their team for moving the work forward with half the people and figuring out together what stays, what goes, what can we push off…” – Liz Bronson
  • If your team was cut down from 5 people to 3, the reality is some projects will need to be lowered in priority or taken off the team’s plate.
  • One way to stand out as an individual contributor during these times is to be part of the solution. Be willing to take on / pick up some of the projects in flight so the team can move forward and be successful.
  • The psychological impact of losing a specific colleague may depend on your relationship with the colleague.
    • There is likely more uncertainty if you lose your boss compared to a teammate.
    • Kat has seen losing a boss go different ways. Some folks are devastated and will be inclined to follow their former boss to a new company if there are opportunities. Getting a new manager even through a situation like this could also end up being a better fit for the team who lost their manager.
    • Kat would encourage us to try (even though it is very hard) to wrangle our mindsets to see the positives in the situation. It’s so much easier said than done.

21:42 – If You’ve Been Laid Off

• What can the person who was impacted by a layoff do? What advice do we have for them to move forward?
  • Kat
    • Take time to gather yourself, and update your resume.
    • On Real Job Talk, Kat and Liz talk about the importance of having a personal board of advisors made up of
      • People who know you very well
      • People you respect
      • People you would turn to in times of career transition or times of navigating a challenging time at work
    • Make sure your personal board of advisors know what happened. Ask them for advice and to make introductions for you.
    • When looking for work, it really is a full-time job. Make sure you approach it that way!
    • Kat mentions they also talk about creating a Must Have List before you update your resume. Get clear on what you must have in order to either make a move from your current role or accept a new role. The list will be what you need to make a move that is a good fit.
      • Think beyond just salary and compensation package. Go back through your career and make some notes.
      • What kind of environment will I be working in?
      • What type of manager do I need / want? Think back on the good managers you’ve had and what made them great.
      • Values go into this as well.
      • Download the Must Have List Template from Real Job Talk here.
    • There’s a mindset piece and the tactical steps you need to take to get the new role.
      • I always say every e-mail, every interview, every conversation makes you one step closer to the offer." – Kat Nelson Troyer
      • Sometimes jobs come to us quickly, and sometimes it takes longer. The challenge is staying patient and firm in what you know you need to make the move.
      • “Of course, it’s a lot more comfortable when we’re employed, when we have a role, to be looking for another job. But when we’re all of a sudden out of work unexpectedly, that’s where we need to push ourselves even more to take the steps that we need to take and to have the conversations…” – Kat Nelson Troyer
• John asks about the mindset piece here and reflects on being caught in the 12,000 person Google Cloud layoff in 2023. Maybe there’s a certain process we need to allow ourselves to go through?
  • You can hear the full story from John’s perspective in Episode 202: John Got Fired.
  • “It’s not personal except it is personal to you because you all the sudden are doing a job search. So it’s 100% personal even though the decision may not be personal.” – Liz Bronson
  • Liz had not really done a job search until last year and is now doing her 2nd job search within a year. When people ask Liz what she does, she tells them “I scream vulnerably into the wind all day.”
  • Liz says searching for a job is hard after you’ve been impacted by a layoff. She encourages others to take breaks as needed.
  • Right now the job market is a little weird. Liz talks to a lot of job seekers.
  • Each day the job seeker should do their best while being outside their comfort zone.
  • “I’ve learned more in this last year of hard than I’ve learned in any other year of my career. I’m grateful for my learning, and I can’t wait to see what’s next.” – Liz Bronson, reflecting on a job she took despite some red flags
  • Liz has had 2 jobs eliminated. After one of these she was angry (especially after not being treated well), and she had a right to feel that way.
  • Liz came to realize being angry wasn’t helping her and that she needed to get past it. But in order to do that, she had to be mad for a few weeks.
  • With the job market being pretty tough right now, we need to remain open to doing different things. Remain open with a critical eye based on your must have list.
  • Do things that bring you joy, and find your gratitude. Liz gets to exercise at times other than early morning without disrupting a set schedule, and she volunteers at Dress for Success. Liz has been able to spend more time with her kids this summer and is studying for a certification.
  • Liz loves to help people and will talk to anyone. She participates in HR leader communities and startup expert communities and would encourage listeners to find communities to join and meet others in the industry.
  • “I’ve built such a better network this year and had great conversations and helped people get unstuck, which is what I love to do, so it brings me the joy that I get in my job. And you just have to make sure that you’re doing things in your day besides screaming vulnerably into the wind because that part’s rough.” – Liz Bronson
  • John says this sounds like experiencing your feelings is fine, but you can’t let them be a barrier to moving forward.
    • Liz would agree. When people stay angry and bitter, that is how they are showing up in an interview, even if they don’t realize it.
    • We’re speaking from a place of privilege, and it can be very scary when your bank account gets low.
    • Liz’s advice for people in this situation is figure out what you have to do to (drive for Uber / Lyft or something else part time if needed) to show up positively for jobs you want to get. Leading with fear and anger won’t land us our next job.
    • John says if you’re feeling those feelings 90% of your day, it would be hard to do an interview and not have those feelings show up. Liz says this might mean examples come across in the negative when you’re interviewed.
    • We can’t stuff the feelings down and not address them. We can talk to friends / our board of advisors or work them out at the gym. We have to work through the feelings and get past them to move forward.
  • Kat heard someone suggest scheduling time to worry into your calendar. Maybe you give yourself 20 minutes every other day, and when you want to worry you know when it’s supposed to happen.
    • If we spend too much / all of our time ruminating on all the things we are worried about it will also show up in job interviews. The rumination can turn into stress and will come out in conversation with others.
    • John has scheduled time for working on specific projects and makes notes so he knows what to work on during that time. If we schedule time to worry, we can add intrusive thoughts to the worry list when they happen. Maybe we can use this to worry less during the times we’re not supposed to worry.
    • If it’s a public calendar you’re using, you might not want to label it as worry time. Choose a different label for the block of time in that case.
    • Maybe if we schedule time to worry it will end up cutting down overall worry time?
    • Nick references Why Smart Kids Worry and the concept of clearing your brain plate. Scheduling time to worry seems like a way to do this. Journaling could be a way to get your thoughts out as well.

32:49 – Must Haves vs. Preferences

• If I really need a job, does my must have list naturally change?
  • Liz says there is must have right now and must have long term. There are also must haves and nice to haves.
  • For example, Liz needs to worry remotely or somewhere in office. She cannot relocate for a job. That’s a must have.
    • She could work in an office 3 days per week or maybe even 5 as long as it’s in Austin, but Liz would prefer a hybrid or work from home situation.
    • Five days per week in an office could work if other things aligned with the must have list.
    • Liz could also travel if needed maybe 25% of the time but not 90% of the time.
  • Preferences and nice to haves are different than the must haves. Look at what you absolutely need.
  • Liz shares the story of a past career coaching client as an illustration. This person had taken what she thought was the dream job but had a new baby and a 2-hour commute each way. This person realized part of the must have list was being closer to home.
  • “The musts are the things that you can’t compromise on, and then other things can ebb and flow as needs arise or don’t.” – Liz Bronson, on the must have list
  • John says there is some prioritization that we need to do as finances dwindle. Maybe we decide what to cut based on how urgent / dire our situation becomes.
    • John says certain things may be must haves except for a certain amount of money (which may be way more than you think anyone would ever pay you).
    • Kat says if you are considering any kind of relocation (even if not ideal), consider what you need to relocate.

Mentioned in the Outro

• If you’re looking for more advice related to layoffs, check out:

  • Episode 237 – The Psychological Transition of Layoffs with Leanne Elliott (1/2)
  • Episode 268 – Ownership through Failures: An Entrepreneur’s Take on Difficult Decisions with Erik Gross (2/3)
  • [Episode 280 – Life after Layoff: A Leader’s Sense of Duty and A Series of Good Conversations with Marni Coffey (3/3)](https://nerd-journey.com/life-after-layoff-a-leaders-sense-of-duty-and-a-series-of-good-conversations-with-marni-coffey-3-3/
  • Revisiting the Foundations of Resumes
  • Revisiting the Foundations of the Job Search
  • Revisiting the Foundations of Job Interviews, Part 1
  • Revisiting the Foundations of Job Interviews, Part 2

• More resources from Real Job Talk:

  • Surviving a Layoff
  • Starting Your New Job Search
  • Resources page with Must Have List template
  • Subscribe to Real Job Talk

• If you’ve been impacted by a layoff, reach out to Al and Leanne Elliott, hosts of the Truth, Lies, and Workplace Culture Podcast for a coaching session.

  • Book a call with Al and Leanne here.

Contact the Hosts

• The hosts of Nerd Journey are John White and Nick Korte.
  • E-mail: [e-mail]
  • DM us on Twitter/X @NerdJourney
  • Connect with John on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @vJourneyman
  • Connect with Nick on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @NetworkNerd_